[BIRD33]

Nope.Torture stuff won't go away.Lawsuits will be coming.He will be forced to investigate and it will lead possibly to the top if people roll over.

[Moto]

You think? This things don't typically pan out.

[BIRD33]

I don't think its like white water and other stuff people get bored with quickly.They've tortured and killed people in US custody so some ugly shit is going to come out in the courts and people will be pointing fingers.Not right away but eventually during O's tenure.

[Jimmy]

I don't mean to seem cold but does the average American really give a shit if Assaam al-hayidh Muhammed had his toenails ripped out over in Egypt? Why was he in custody anyway. WHAT DOES HE KNOW!!??!!!

[BIRD33]

The average american probably not but people in the armed service care because our tactics will be thrown right back at us and we won't have the moral high ground anymore.If torture was proven to work that would be one thing but according to WWII and vietnam intelligence agents it yields more false info than anything.

[Jimmy]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one Bird. I really doubt that at any point during the recent campaigns did any American service member harbor any false hope that if he/she were captured by the opposing force, they would treated according to the letter of the Geneva convention. What would happen to them should they end up captive probably rates a higher level of anxiousness than the thought of death.

[BIRD33]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one Bird. I really doubt that at any point during the recent campaigns did any American service member harbor any false hope that if he/she were captured by the opposing force, they would treated according to the letter of the Geneva convention. What would happen to them should they end up captive probably rates a higher level of anxiousness than the thought of death.

Are we going to slum to their level because of that?In real wars like WWII not occupations like Iraq people do abide by the G C.If we don't who will?

bottom line is torture is unreliable and the reputation we get hurts us more than any intelligence we could gather could help us.

[Jimmy]

Circa WWII.

[Jimmy]

“The military is using us to say, ‘We did spooky stuff then, so it’s okay to do it now,’” said Arno Mayer, 81, who now teaches at Princeton. Another vet recalled their grilling tactics, saying they felt bad if they bugged cells or edited letters. “We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or ping-pong than they do today, with their torture."

This is a good point but I'm not sure PingPong with Zacarias Moussaoui is in the CIA's master plan.

[BIRD33]

Circa WWII.

This is an anti torture poster, right?

[Ntype]

damn this stuff is slipping into interesting waters.

Ok first of all replace imperialism with "the system" yeah the system is here and now looking to survive, don't get it wrong it's not especially that bad, it's only that if you plan to start over you need some major mayhem that is going to kill half world population to hope for a "change" in the way to do things.

So far "the system" is, alas, not really driven by a " few selected persons" but by billions of individuals who struggle for their daily life. You may wonder where they did catched their dreams (you may point out to a few individuals) but in fact if you look history, humanity always loved to gather in groups.

There were still fiercely individuals but the norm is the comfort of the group (group, village, city, state...) and to fit it you need the group to share common goals or dreams (that's natural you see you tend to gather with people who share your interests...).
Anyhow so your needs for a common denominator tends to bring you to basic needs "my country/town/village/pond/hole..." my food/music/clothes/religion....

So now you may wonder who is going to be elected by the "mass" someone who is fiercely individual or someone who fitted in the group ?
Now fast forward the system couldn't continue for a long time, that was like in Soviet Russia, at some point they ran out of cash, their industries where a joke who hadn't been upgraded in 20 years and well people where starving for food but mostly to live in a decent confort; so the system needed an evolution or die extinct - they called that "the perestroika- who created the world post cold war.

But I'm going a little bit away from the main point; if the plan wouldn't have been been approved (and at some point stock exchange and forex transactions freezed) banks and the automakers would have closed resulting in a catastrophic loss of confidence and well you betcha mass failure of the system.

Now he couldn't play by the same rules anymore -I'm talking about the system, this is metaphorically speaking btw- when you need a humpalumpa wad of cash and just stopped playing by your own rules (remember capitalism and free market, no state intervention blah blah) you just can't make it secret and well you need to say that you won't be naugthy again (otherwise people are going for the forks and they will burn your barn).

Remember the persons who had the most to lost weren't you or me or any other persons out there but the bankers who broke their toys. I mean seriously we all have a real job out there, they don't.

[BIRD33]

This is a good point but I'm not sure PingPong with Zacarias Moussaoui is in the CIA's master plan.

I read the ping pong line before.Its true some guys need to be roughed up a bit but if you threaten to cut my balls off I'll tell you whatever it takes to stop that.Real or otherwise.

[Jimmy]

The poster was in reference to your real wars comment. It did happen and it will continue to happen is really my main point. What my original question was and still is do you think there will be enough outrage amongst the great unwashed that Obama will have to do something more pragmatic?

[BIRD33]

I thought\think that poster was referencing the Japanese in WW2 who didnt abide by the Geneva convention.The fact we held the high ground was a tremendous PR move and helped our efforts.Think about the threat the allies faced compared to the ones we do and I don't see how if the allies didnt have to torture then why do we have to now?

Of course we live in the 24 world where people always talk about the ticking time bomb scenario that has never happened but I do understand with dirty bomb or nuclear stuff out there its serious business.We (as in america, leader of the free world , by ourselves) pay billions a year for intelligence\defense along with having highly trained interrogators that don't need waterboarding and I'd hope that type of spending gets results.I'm not sure I want to live in a country that tortures a guy to have him tell where a stash of AK47's is and thats where I fear this is all leading.

[snarg]

ya know, tweety, you are right
but you are becoming sooooooooooooooo fucking booooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring
pealse step up your game
your (sic) all we got
thanks

[Anhil8tor]

US President Barack Obama has seen his approval ratings tumble in a new poll.

The poll, published today by news channel CNN, put President Obama's overall job approval rating at 61%, down from 76% in February.

More than one third of respondents (37%) said they disapprove of how the new US leader is doing his job.

70% said Mr Obama is 'a strong and decisive leader,' down from 80% in February, while just 53% said he has a 'clear plan for solving the nation's problems,' down from 64%.

[BIRD33]

Oh no a majority like him and his policies!

[BIRD33]

Nope.Torture stuff won't go away.Lawsuits will be coming.He will be forced to investigate and it will lead possibly to the top if people roll over.

Hello prescient prediction.

How bout Nancy Pelosi getting shit a few months back for saying the CIA lied to her and the whole right going apeshit, calling her a liar for a few weeks and demanding she apologize?Now that its been made public that the CIA was holding back info on fucking assassination squads(seriously) when will she be getting her apologies from the Sean Hannitys of the world?

Doesnt it feel totally not dirty that the previous administration was forming hit squads without any oversight from the people we elect?Death Squads?USA!USA!

[BIRD33]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/opinio...ch.html?em

That’s why Palin won’t go gently into the good night, much as some Republicans in Washington might wish. She is not just the party’s biggest star and most charismatic television performer; she is its only star and charismatic performer. Most important, she stands for a genuine movement: a dwindling white nonurban America that is aflame with grievances and awash in self-pity as the country hurtles into the 21st century and leaves it behind. Palin gives this movement a major party brand and political plausibility that its open-throated media auxiliary, exemplified by Glenn Beck, cannot. She loves the spotlight, can raise millions of dollars and has no discernible reason to go fishing now except for self-promotional photo ops.

[Anhil8tor]

While naive, giddy and myopic establishment leftists have been celebrating the great “change” heralded by the election of Barack Obama, the President elect has been busy appointing people to key positions who advocate the same Neo-Con imperialist foreign policy crafted during eight years of the Bush administration. The New York Times, widely recognized as the voice of the establishment Democratic left, set the tone of what we can expect from an Obama foreign policy in a lead editorial last Sunday entitled, “A military for a dangerous new world.”