[SizeMatters]

I meant that in jest. The common retort to anyone against ILLEGAL immigration is that that they are a racist. Does not matter your logical reasons for being against it. They will usually try to muddy the waters by convienently leaving the ILLEGAL part off as well.

These immigrants make up about 5% of the workforce. Their are plenty of teenagers and others that are unemployed or underemployed will do the lower wage jobs if that workforce is not present. Now, if the companies are paying too little, they will have to raise the pay. This will increase the cost of goods somewhat. However, the overall good for the economy will offset this. Not to mention that the ability for us to spend more money per student educating our own children will pay off dividends in the long run as well.
This is not just about health care, Bird. The ILLEGAL immigrants are a tremendous drain on our public resources, including schooling, public assistance, traffic and so on. This is not a problem all over the country, but it is a tremendous problem in the southwest.
This is not even mentioning that the majority of the wages the ILLEGAL immigrants are making is leaving our economy. They pay little in taxes, and consume as little as possible. This is a drain as well.

I have a pretty good feeling we are not going to convince each other that we are each right or wrong. We can do this all day long, each of us making our points.

I think I love you.

[SizeMatters]

I am still hoping bird33 will smack me in paragraph form.

[BIRD33]

thousands of people of middle eastern descent going to Mexico, adopting a spanish sounding last name and coming across the border illegally.



but maybe its no big problem as long as your lettuce and blue jeans don't cost you anymore than they do now.

So should we build a fence and ban ladders?Do you realize that the 9-11 terrorists came to this country through legal channels?So what would controling the mexican border do to stop terrorism?The CIA and the NSA are in charge of securing the united states not the border patrol, we pay billions for it a year for them to do it.You simply do not understand the issue and wont until your paying the same for a bag of oranges that you would pay for a carton of cigarettes.

[SanDog]

I'll play the whinny bitch on that point however I have to tell you that this effectively a reality (they send most of the money home thus disrupting the "attended flow of money within the own country") however this is a short/medium term problem; in fact most of the persons sends money over there to pay a better education for their kids (so they don't have to wash the plates in a restaurant), better housing, some even plan to run business in their countries.

At the long term it's a tremendeously effective way to lever a local economy thus creating new markets for YOUR economy. Ok they won't buy supercomputers or airplanes tommorrow but think about your kids in 20 years maybe they would appreciate that.

Unfortunately none of this will happen in the Latin American countries in question as long as they continue down the corrupt path that are currently on. They need wholesale changes in order for what are you saying to occur, and in order for that to happen allt he people who have the ambition and ability to make the change need to stick around and do it. Instead they come here. Then they try to to bring their families here. I understand why they do this, we just cannot afford to continue to finance it.

[BIRD33]

I meant that in jest. The common retort to anyone against ILLEGAL immigration is that that they are a racist. Does not matter your logical reasons for being against it. They will usually try to muddy the waters by convienently leaving the ILLEGAL part off as well.

These immigrants make up about 5% of the workforce. Their are plenty of teenagers and others that are unemployed or underemployed will do the lower wage jobs if that workforce is not present. Now, if the companies are paying too little, they will have to raise the pay. This will increase the cost of goods somewhat. However, the overall good for the economy will offset this. Not to mention that the ability for us to spend more money per student educating our own children will pay off dividends in the long run as well.
This is not just about health care, Bird. The ILLEGAL immigrants are a tremendous drain on our public resources, including schooling, public assistance, traffic and so on. This is not a problem all over the country, but it is a tremendous problem in the southwest.
This is not even mentioning that the majority of the wages the ILLEGAL immigrants are making is leaving our economy. They pay little in taxes, and consume as little as possible. This is a drain as well.

I have a pretty good feeling we are not going to convince each other that we are each right or wrong. We can do this all day long, each of us making our points.

Illegal is just a term that could be replace by undocumeted worker.We know their here.They've been here for almost 100 years and every president has been aware and practically approved of the situation but they are illegal?Please show me a teenager who wants to be a sheep herder for $30 a month and I'll agree with you.I just dont want the price of goods to rise and the only way to do that is to have an illegal or undocmented workforce.Any tax solution kills small business and would start a mass exodus of companies overseas.Seriously what happened to the textile industry in the Carolina's then?

[SizeMatters]

yes!

[SizeMatters]

You simply do not understand the issue

:lool:

What problem?

bird I understand the issue. I just don't think it's fixable anymore. 10 years ago, maybe. now it's too late. it's nothing more than a political footbal we are all going to have to try and "catch" at some point.


what's best for the American people is not longer an issue. not in D.C anyway.


I said what I said because you said "What problem?" the problem for me has little to do with how much I will be paying for a bag of goddamn oranges.

[BIRD33]

:rofl:

good point.

[SanDog]

Illegal is just a term that could be replace by undocumeted worker.We know their here.They've been here for almost 100 years and every president has been aware and practically approved of the situation but they are illegal?Please show me a teenager who wants to be a sheep herder for $30 a month and I'll agree with you.I just dont want the price of goods to rise and the only way to do that is to have an illegal or undocmented workforce.Any tax solution kills small business and would start a mass exodus of companies overseas.Seriously what happened to the textile industry in the Carolina's then?

I understand your position, but you are exaggerating a bit. I used to do the labor that these people in question are doing. I mowed lawns, I picked fruit, I washed dishes. Did I want to? No. The idea that you only should get to do jobs that you want to simpy perpetuates the problem. Teenagers and the unemployed, unskilled workforce could easily fill in. With a much slighter impact to pricing. I am not interested in a tax solution. In fact you may find yourself in a better tax situation (depending on your states problem) by no longer having to finance the "Undocumented Workers" in the public arena.

[SizeMatters]

good point.

read it now

[ntype]

Unfortunately none of this will happen in the Latin American countries in question as long as they continue down the corrupt path that are currently on. They need wholesale changes in order for what are you saying to occur, and in order for that to happen allt he people who have the ambition and ability to make the change need to stick around and do it. Instead they come here. Then they try to to bring their families here. I understand why they do this, we just cannot afford to continue to finance it.

It's interesting that you speak about the briberring, yeah this is a major concern but this is another discourse...Why it all happens and starts. It's not only a matter of "culture" (some culture encourage the bribering you know) but more a structural problem (state not present, wages way too low, education (aka bribering is bad !)...).
I agree with you, effectively the most competent/intelligent/willing people usually go abroad when the situation is too fucked up.
Now be optimistic because it's a long run, ok the state of the "State" is bad but indeed in this case it's "people helping people".
Does the 300 USD that that dude sent out this week to help his family aren't going to be used in part to pay bribes ? Sure it will happens but see the positive point...with the remaining money the family will get better support thus maybe not "teaching the lesson that money should be earned by all possible ways"

[BIRD33]

I understand your position, but you are exaggerating a bit. I used to do the labor that these people in question are doing. I mowed lawns, I picked fruit, I washed dishes. Did I want to? No. The idea that you only should get to do jobs that you want to simpy perpetuates the problem. Teenagers and the unemployed, unskilled workforce could easily fill in. With a much slighter impact to pricing. I am not interested in a tax solution. In fact you may find yourself in a better tax situation (depending on your states problem) by no longer having to finance the "Undocumented Workers" in the public arena.

This issue isnt teaching teenagers the value of a good work ethic.Either way some of theses employers simply can't pay the minumun wage a american teenager would be demand by law and compete in their market. If they cant compete in the market they close or move overseas which hurts other employees higher on the payroll that are american that say work in the office doing the sales while the illegals herd the sheep.I'm not talking about the guys cutting grass I'm talking about the people living in tin shacks on a plantation picking grapes for 1.25 an hour and the guys working in 150 degree heat for 16 hours in a foundry which is the more realistic situation an illegal worker is in that 99.9% of americans will not take at a low wage.I keep saying this but the textile industry in the Carolina's is a perfect example of what happens when we try to compete with other countries in cheap goods but still pay a high wage, the profits simply disappear followed by the company.

[BIRD33]

:lool:






bird I understand the issue. I just don't think it's fixable anymore. 10 years ago, maybe. now it's too late. it's nothing more than a political footbal we are all going to have to try and "catch" at some point.


what's best for the American people is not longer an issue. not in D.C anyway.


I said what I said because you said "What problem?" the problem for me has little to do with how much I will be paying for a bag of goddamn oranges.

So what is the problem for you then, terrorism?How can you say you don't care about the price of goods, thats just stupid.

[ntype]

In Switzerland some realisitic calculus have been done...we can't compete against chinese in producing cheap clothes ?

just let the clothing economy die by himself and take advantageous options with the chineses.

you just can't always be the cheaper. And remember kids, when there won't be petrol anymore this kind of problems will disapear (ok other problems will arise...anyhow)

[SizeMatters]

So what is the problem for you then, terrorism?How can you say you don't care about the price of goods, thats just stupid.

the problem for me is the principal of it all. thats "me personally". if we're talking about the "problems" this causes for the country I don't think I need to go into it.



I am not worried about a terrorist attack. I live in a small town. have no exteneded family etc. it's going to happen one day, I am not afraid.


I spend very little money. what I make goes to rent, car payment, a few groceries, dog and cat food and the rest is expendable.


the (projected) amount of increase in price of the goods I buy is not of concern to me. especially in the areas these prices will be going up.




for me, it's the principal of it all and I have learned early on that arguing things over principal instead of practicality is almost pointless. it just makes me feel better to not be so apathetic.

[Flumper Barflusterbutt]

I'm a big proponent of Free Enterprise and "Supply & Demand".

[BIRD33]

the problem for me is the principal of it all. thats "me personally". if we're talking about the "problems" this causes for the country I don't think I need to go into it.



I am not worried about a terrorist attack. I live in a small town. have no exteneded family etc. it's going to happen one day, I am not afraid.


I spend very little money. what I make goes to rent, car payment, a few groceries, dog and cat food and the rest is expendable.


the (projected) amount of increase in price of the goods I buy is not of concern to me. especially in the areas these prices will be going up.




for me, it's the principal of it all and I have learned early on that arguing things over principal instead of practicality is almost pointless. it just makes me feel better to not be so apathetic.

Well dont say I didnt warn you when the price of hackey sacks triples.

[SizeMatters]

now that shit hits home!








(I have never played with a hackey sack in my life)

[Flumper Barflusterbutt]

Out of 85 employees, I have about 15 or 20 that are going to work Monday.

[ntype]

Out of 85 employees, I have about 15 or 20 that are going to work Monday.

don't worry they plan to do some kind of sitting by your palce. :d