So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Printable Version

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - BIRD33 - 09-04-2008

I wouldnt expect less.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-04-2008

BIRD33 Wrote:You are correct but saying and doing are two different things.You say he didnt vote to outlaw torture because it would take away some latitude for the CIA.What the fuck does that mean?How so?Is this latitude worth the fact that people from other countries can still say America tortures people?Take a look at who voted against that bill.Only two republican voted to outlaw torture.It was all based on party lines because the Bush white house can't have it outlawed because they are in danger of going down for war crimes.Mccain could have taken a principled stand but didnt.Until he does its all words.

I'll wager another $25 he never brings it up tonight.

I have no idea if he will bring it up tonight or not. I don't think the top of torture is very high on his list of things that he thinks he needs to convey to the American people. He has been pretty damn deadset on his views on torture. Any torture done by any branch of the US should be done within the guidlines of the Geneva Convention. Period. That is his stance and always has been.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-04-2008

BIRD33 Wrote:You say he didnt vote to outlaw torture because it would take away some latitude for the CIA.What the fuck does that mean?How so?Is this latitude worth the fact that people from other countries can still say America tortures people?Take a look at who voted against that bill.Only two republican voted to outlaw torture.

Once again McCain is a maverick and stands by his principles.

New York Times Wrote:Senator John McCain’s vote last week against a bill to curtail the Central Intelligence Agency’s use of harsh interrogation tactics disappointed human rights advocates who consider him an ally and led Democrats to charge that he was trying to please Republicans as he seeks to rally them around his presidential bid.

The bill, which the Senate passed Wednesday by 51 to 45, would force the C.I.A. to abide by the rules set out in the Army Field Manual on Interrogation, which prohibits physical force and lists approved interrogation methods.

Mr. McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, has led the battle in recent years on a number of bills to end torture by the United States. He said he voted against the bill Wednesday because legislation he had helped to pass already prohibits the C.I.A. from “cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment.”

Mr. McCain, of Arizona, said he believed it would be a mistake to limit C.I.A. interrogators to using only those techniques that were enumerated in the Field Manual, which he noted was a public document.

“When we passed the Military Commissions Act, we said that the C.I.A. should have the ability to use additional techniques,” Mr. McCain told reporters Friday in Oshkosh, Wis. “None of those techniques would entail violating the Detainee Treatment Act, which said that cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment are prohibited.”

The problem, human rights advocates say, is that disagreement remains over which tactics are prohibited. Mr. McCain, for example, said waterboarding — a simulated drowning technique — was an illegal form of torture. But while the C.I.A. says it no longer uses waterboarding, the Bush administration has not ruled out its use in the future.

“It’s disappointing,” said Jennifer Daskal, a senior counsel at Human Rights Watch, “that Senator McCain, who has long made it clear that Congress had intended to outlaw abusive interrogation techniques including waterboarding, won’t stand up to an administration that continues to say waterboarding is O.K. in certain circumstances.”

Although Mr. McCain has battled the Bush administration over whether waterboarding is illegal, his vote on Wednesday allied him with President Bush, who has threatened to veto the bill.

Democrats have used the vote to suggest that Mr. McCain was trying to curry favor with conservatives in the Republican Party, who have viewed him with suspicion and whose support he needs as he tries to unite the party behind his presidential campaign. The Democratic National Committee said in a statement last week that Mr. McCain had chosen “pandering over his principles.”

Mr. McCain said the vote was consistent, noting in a statement he submitted to the Congressional Record that when Congress voted in 2005 to apply the Army Field Manual to the entire Department of Defense, it deliberately excluded the C.I.A.

Mr. McCain, according to a Senate aide of his, believes that while the C.I.A. should be — and is — prohibited from using cruel and inhumane and degrading tactics, it should have the flexibility to use acceptable tactics that are not listed in the Field Manual.

Elisa Massimino, the Washington director of Human Rights First, said given the administration’s refusal to clearly ban abusive techniques, it made sense for Congress to be more explicit about what should and should not be allowed. Requiring the C.I.A. to follow the Field Manual, Ms. Massimino added, would be a welcome step in that direction.

“We’re very disappointed in his vote,” she said of Mr. McCain. “Because of his personal history and his leadership on this issue, it sends a terrible message to the rest of the world, to Americans, to the troops.”

Mr. McCain, in his statement to the Congressional Record, faulted the Bush administration for declining to declare waterboarding illegal. He said Congress intended to outlaw the practice when it passed the Military Commissions Act in 2006 and was even reassured by the administration that it had been.

“Staging a mock execution by inducing the misperception of drowning is a clear violation of this standard,” Mr. McCain said in the statement. “Indeed, during the negotiations, we were personally assured by administration officials that this language, which applies to all agencies of the U.S. government, prohibited waterboarding.”

[SIZE="4"]“It is unfortunate,” he continued, “that the reluctance of officials to stand by this straightforward conclusion has produced in the Congress such frustration that we are today debating whether to apply a military field manual to nonmilitary intelligence activities. It would be far better, I believe, for the administration to state forthrightly what is clear in current law — that anyone who engages in waterboarding, on behalf of any U.S. government agency, puts himself at risk of criminal prosecution and civil liability.”[/SIZE]

Bird, I don't know how much more clear he can be about this.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - BIRD33 - 09-04-2008

He could vote against using torture when he had the chance.Say and doing like I said.

Look I'm sure he's truely against it but he had a chance to outlaw it and didnt.It was so he could be in line with the republican base and support GW.I really don't respect that.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-04-2008

BIRD33 Wrote:He could vote against using torture when he had the chance.Say and doing like I said.

Look I'm sure he's truely against it but he had a chance to outlaw it and didnt.It was so he could be in line with the republican base and support GW.I really don't respect that.

But see, that's just the Democratic spin. The fact is that Bush was going to veto it anyway. But McCain used it as an opportunity to highlight the fact that the LAWS already are clear and that waterboarding is illegal. He used this as an opportunity to call Bush out and say, "Just fucking say it. Admit that it is illegal."

If he was using this as a chance to win some approval votes from Bush, then he would have just voted against it and kept his fucking mouth shut.

Try looking for something else about McCain that you just don't agree with. Like wanting to drill for more oil on American soil. But I think you should probably lay off trying to pin him as someone that is an advocate of torture.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Anhil8tor - 09-04-2008

Barack Obama's platform is standard Democratic boilerplate. He proposes universal health insurance to cover the presently uninsured. On education he proposes a Zero to Five program of learning and care for children and families, adds funding to No Child Left Behind, and makes college more affordable. On Social Security he is "strongly opposed" to privatization, opposes raising the retirement age and proposes to "choose a payroll tax reform package" to keep Social Security solvent. He'll bring all our combat brigades home from Iraq in 16 months. There will be no permanent bases in Iraq, but there's an out. If al Qaeda "attempts to build a base in Iraq" he'll use US troops for "targeted strikes" on al Qaeda.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - BIRD33 - 09-04-2008

Anhil8tor Wrote:Barack Obama's platform is standard Democratic boilerplate. He proposes universal health insurance to cover the presently uninsured. On education he proposes a Zero to Five program of learning and care for children and families, adds funding to No Child Left Behind, and makes college more affordable. On Social Security he is "strongly opposed" to privatization, opposes raising the retirement age and proposes to "choose a payroll tax reform package" to keep Social Security solvent. He'll bring all our combat brigades home from Iraq in 16 months. There will be no permanent bases in Iraq, but there's an out. If al Qaeda "attempts to build a base in Iraq" he'll use US troops for "targeted strikes" on al Qaeda.

So Mona Charen was right?The reason I ask is because you seem to have copied verbatim from a right wing web site.Below is the link you failed to provide.I'm sure you just forgot.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/reviewing_obamas_blueprint_for.html

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Anhil8tor - 09-04-2008

BIRD33 Wrote:So Mona Charen was right?The reason I ask is because you seem to have copied verbatim from a right wing web site.Below is the link you failed to provide.I'm sure you just forgot.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/reviewing_obamas_blueprint_for.html

duh... i pulled up two sites... americanthinker and obamachange or whatever his site is. the stuff on his site is pipe dreams... no reason to even post it.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - BIRD33 - 09-04-2008

P.S.
Obama's Iraq policy is basically the same as GW and Mccains now that they've followed Obama's advice.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - BIRD33 - 09-04-2008

Anhil8tor Wrote:duh... i pulled up two sites... americanthinker and obamachange or whatever his site is. the stuff on his site is pipe dreams... no reason to even post it.

And the stuff on americanthinker is fact?

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Anhil8tor - 09-04-2008

they aren't pulling out. they are refocusing on Afghanistan.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-04-2008

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-04-2008

BIRD33 Wrote:P.S.
Obama's Iraq policy is basically the same as GW and Mccains now that they've followed Obama's advice.

:lool: Hysterical. McCain was the one that advocated the surge and most of the credit for that happening was because he went against popular opinion and pushed for it. About the time McCain was pushing for the surge, Obama was preaching to just pull out the troops, all of them.

I think McCain's famous quote was, "I'd rather win a war and lose an election."

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - BIRD33 - 09-04-2008

Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote::lool: Hysterical. McCain was the one that advocated the surge and most of the credit for that happening was because he went against popular opinion and pushed for it. About the time McCain was pushing for the surge, Obama was preaching to just pull out the troops, all of them.

I think McCain's famous quote was, "I'd rather win a war and lose an election."

I'm talking about withdrawl time lines.Surely you saw how Mccain and Bush were against them before they were for them, right?Thats been Obama's position all along and Mccain and Bush used to call it "cut and running".

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - BIRD33 - 09-04-2008

This is odd.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - snarg - 09-04-2008

quoting giuliani is a mistake
he is lower than pond scum
just because the twin towers went down, does not make him a hero
he is a total fuckwad

weak, flumpstein, very weak if he is the best ya got

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-04-2008

BIRD33 Wrote:This is odd.

cratch:



btw. I thought this was odd.

[vbtube]P_igpyewuzQ[/vbtube]

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-04-2008

snarg Wrote:quoting giuliani is a mistake
he is lower than pond scum
just because the twin towers went down, does not make him a hero
he is a total fuckwad

weak, flumpstein, very weak if he is the best ya got

Newsflash: No one listens to snarg.

We now return to Flump handing BIRD33 his ass. Thanks.

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-05-2008

Here is one of our greatest Senators doing what he does best. Introducing fine legislation.

This was in January 2007. Right before the surge started. With a goal to remove all US forces by March 2008. In other words, surrender.

[vbtube]WY2BhrOxDjE[/vbtube]

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So I was watching the State of the Union last night.... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 09-05-2008

[vbtube]n4XY1SB7FFU[/vbtube]

:lool:

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