[Banana]

or a belief in God, or a higher power, makes you moral?

[Anhil8tor]

It made beau a better person.

[BIRD33]

No.

[Banana]

I see a lot of religious or quasi-religious people saying things like "a belief in God makes people good" and "without God, we would all be immoral." I don't understand where that comes from?

[BIRD33]

Its an easy way to not have to think about it.

[Banana]

I know you are largely agnostic, so I wonder what a relgious person would say about it. It seems to be another guilt breeding tactic. It's not a stretch to take the argument from: God makes you moral to: If you don't believe in God, you are immoral.

[BIRD33]

I don't think you'll find any real religious scholar who will say that.Anyone who does is most likely the same people who think that something must be evil if its written to be evil in the bible.I know you won't find the former here for sure and the latter could be looking at this but what kind of argument could they make beside "cause I read it"?

I've been reading with pleasure about the hard line right wing catholic priest who was in charge of an influential catholic magazine that got caught screwing a possible underage girl and getting her pregnant.Of course the church tried to gloss over it.

I really don't take anything a religious person or official says seriously.Its all a myth.

[CT280]

fuck religion. seriously.

[Banana]

One of the biggest criticism's of Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion is this: if there is no God, why be good?

The Britian based atheist group has just launched those billboard campaigns, stating "There is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life." There seems to be an underlying assumption that God is the only reason people are motivated to be good.
Which I find ludacris, because if the only reason you are good is because you feel you have a survelillance camera watching over you, your character is questionnable anyways. If God turned his watchful eye, you'd murder, rape and steal?

[CT280]

One of the biggest criticism's of Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion is this: if there is no God, why be good?

The Britian based atheist group has just launched those billboard campaigns, stating "There is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life." There seems to be an underlying assumption that God is the only reason people are motivated to be good.
Which I find ludacris, because if the only reason you are good is because you feel you have a survelillance camera watching over you, your character is questionnable anyways. If God turned his watchful eye, you'd murder, rape and steal?

on second thought, fuck cucumber.

[Banana]

on second thought, fuck cucumber.

:lool: Do you want me to use a special picture on serious threads, since I know you loathe serious topics?

[CT280]

:lool: Do you want me to use a special picture on serious threads, since I know you loathe serious topics?

im ok with serious threads. except the ones i am way over my head in. which is about 90% of yours. i can find my way around a circumcision thread no problem.

[BIRD33]

One of the biggest criticism's of Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion is this: if there is no God, why be good?

The Britian based atheist group has just launched those billboard campaigns, stating "There is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life." There seems to be an underlying assumption that God is the only reason people are motivated to be good.
Which I find ludacris, because if the only reason you are good is because you feel you have a survelillance camera watching over you, your character is questionnable anyways. If God turned his watchful eye, you'd murder, rape and steal?

I read about the bus campaign.To me its kind of weird to be so anti religion that you would take ads out for it.I just don't care enough I guess but I do understand the need to push back a little against the religious folk trying to impose their beliefs on everyone.

To a degree I think that if people didnt believe in god they would be less moral.There are some who arent as open minded as you or I which sounds really snooty(which you should be at home with) and having a hell to worry about in the afterlife does probably add some deterrent to being evil.So I guess what I'm saying is the lower IQ set believing in god has a benifit to all man kind.

[Banana]

I read about the bus campaign.To me its kind of weird to be so anti religion that you would take ads out for it.I just don't care enough I guess but I do understand the need to push back a little against the religious folk trying to impose their beliefs on everyone.

To a degree I think that if people didnt believe in god they would be less moral.There are some who arent as open minded as you or I which sounds really snooty(which you should be at home with) and having a hell to worry about in the afterlife does probably add some deterrent to being evil.So I guess what I'm saying is the lower IQ set believing in god has a benifit to all man kind.

Good to see you still can't offer an opinion or valid argument without making it personal. Stay gold, Ponyboy.

I think it's incredibly misleading for the fundamentalists to link morality with God. Historically (and currently), some of the most brutal wars are over religion. I've also seen a lot of people make this distinction: Hitler and Stalin were both atheists. Ergo, atheists are immoral (and presumably, murderers, torturers, etc).

[Paddy]

BIRD, it's the opiate of the masses

[Banana]

BIRD, it's the opiate of the masses

Did you watch House last night? It's not the opiate of the masses, it's the placebo of the masses.

[CT280]

Good to see you still can't offer an opinion or valid argument without making it personal. Stay gold, Ponyboy.

I think it's incredibly misleading for the fundamentalists to link morality with God. Historically (and currently), some of the most brutal wars are over religion. I've also seen a lot of people make this distinction: Hitler and Stalin were both atheists. Ergo, atheists are immoral (and presumably, murderers, torturers, etc).

never gets old. ever.

[BIRD33]

Good to see you still can't offer an opinion or valid argument without making it personal. Stay gold, Ponyboy.

I think it's incredibly misleading for the fundamentalists to link morality with God. Historically (and currently), some of the most brutal wars are over religion. I've also seen a lot of people make this distinction: Hitler and Stalin were both atheists. Ergo, atheists are immoral (and presumably, murderers, torturers, etc).

Please bookmark this page for future reference of an insult I actually made towards you.It will be a nice change of pace.

I understand historically religion is the biggest cause of wars etc... and anyone who acts like the fact they believe in god is reason enough to believe they are moral is kidding themselves or has never thought about the big picture.Now knowing what you know about humanity and all the creatures that occupy the different rungs of intelligence do you think most believers would still be moral if they gave up religion and realized there is no god?I'd say a good portion would still be moral but there would also be a lot who would not if they thought no god was there to punish them.As this places resident adulterer has said it is an opiate to the masses and that can be a good thing in some ways.

Do you feel there would be a certain bit of anarchy if say aliens came down and showed the whole world that Jesus\Allah was just a man and explained how everything worked to the point where it seemed pointless to believe in a god for 99% of the population?I think we'd have real problems for the first few generations of people because they would feel like they have no reason to be moral if you only live once and there is no chance of heaven.

[Banana]

Do you feel there would be a certain bit of anarchy if say aliens came down and showed the whole world that Jesus\Allah was just a man and explained how everything worked to the point where it seemed pointless to believe in a god for 99% of the population?I think we'd have real problems for the first few generations of people because they would feel like they have no reason to be moral if you only live once and there is no chance of heaven.

Well, I can see both sides of this. If we look at a number of violent and uncessesary "fights" they have been over religion.

WWII wasn't just about race. In Mein Kampf, Hitler talked about how he hated everything about the Jews, including Judaism. The current conflict in the Middle East has a lot to do with religion. A lot of bloodshed could have been prevented if religion had never come into existence. More examples: The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Salem Witch Trials,, the Thirty Years' War, 9/11 and the following war, the suicide bombings that go on in the Middle East, the fight over the Danish cartoons of Mohammed, the fight over Salman Rushdie's book.... It's really hard to imagine someone going back in time and preventing religion from coming into being and these wars being fought over something else. Hatred and violence towards abortion and homosexuality are rooted in the interpretation of the Bible. Of course, not all wars and all bloodshed are the product of religion. Religion, though, causes a lot of conflict.

Without religion, I don't think the world would be a sudden utopia, either. But, we might eliminate a huge thing that we argue about.

[CT280]

Well, I can see both sides of this. If we look at a number of violent and uncessesary "fights" they have been over religion.

WWII wasn't just about race. In Mein Kampf, Hitler talked about how he hated everything about the Jews, including Judaism. The current conflict in the Middle East has a lot to do with religion. A lot of bloodshed could have been prevented if religion had never come into existence. More examples: The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Salem Witch Trials,, the Thirty Years' War, 9/11 and the following war, the suicide bombings that go on in the Middle East, the fight over the Danish cartoons of Mohammed, the fight over Salman Rushdie's book.... It's really hard to imagine someone going back in time and preventing religion from coming into being and these wars being fought over something else. Hatred and violence towards abortion and homosexuality are rooted in the interpretation of the Bible. Of course, not all wars and all bloodshed are the product of religion. Religion, though, causes a lot of conflict.

Without religion, I don't think the world would be a sudden utopia, either. But, we might eliminate a huge thing that we argue about.

i agree (tits).
When Adolf Hitler argued against the Jews, he turned it into a religious argument rather than if some Germans had stolen jobs from other Germans. When two countries declare war citing God or religious grounds, they turn it into a religious war whether or not this was the original intention. When suicide bombers stand up in court and quote from a Holy Book, they turn it into a religious conflict rather than some madman who just holds a grudge against the government. In all of these examples, society doesn’t turn against these individuals for being mad or bad, but for being religious. It isn’t just about the wrongness of the action but its religious angle which provides fuel to the argument.
Like so many other groups, religion has – and probably will continue to become – the one which is least understood and most hated. The one, most tolerant set of beliefs, has become the one is the butt of the most intolerant set of opinions.

just my take on it.