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How Far Is Too Far?
#1

PLEASE DISCUSS:


Workers Told 'No Smoking,' Even at Home
Tuesday, 8-Feb-2005 3:10PM MST Story from AP
Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press (via ClariNet)

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Associated Press/AP Online
OKEMOS, Mich. - A Michigan company's decision to dismiss workers who smoke, even if it's on their own time, has privacy and workers' rights advocates alarmed and is raising concerns about whether pizza boxes and six packs are the next to go.

Weyco Inc., an Okemos-based medical benefits administrator, said its offer of smoking cessation classes and support groups helped 18 to 20 of the company's nearly 200 workers quit smoking over the past 15 months.

But four others who couldn't - or wouldn't - no longer had jobs on Jan. 1.

"We had told them they had a choice," said Weyco Chief Financial Officer Gary Climes. "We're not saying you can't smoke in your home. We just say you can't smoke and work here."

Such policies basically say employers can tell workers how to live their lives even in the privacy of their own homes, something they have no business doing, said Lewis Maltby, president of The National Workrights Institute in Princeton, N.J., a part of the American Civil Liberties Union until 2000.

"If a company said, `We're going to cut down on our health care costs by forbidding anyone from eating at McDonald's,' they could do it," he said. "There are a thousand things about people's private lives that employers don't like for a thousand different reasons."

Former Weyco receptionist Cara Stiffler of Williamston, one of those who found herself without a job Jan. 1, called Weyco's policy intrusive.

"I don't believe any employer should be able to come in and tell you what you can do in your home," she said.

Some companies, while not going as far as Weyco, are trying to lower their health care costs by refusing to hire any more smokers.

Union Pacific Corp., headquartered in Omaha, Neb., began rejecting smokers' applications in Texas, Idaho, Tennessee, Arkansas, Washington state, Arizona and parts of Kansas and Nebraska last year and hopes to add more states.

Public affairs director John Bromley said the company estimates it will save $922 annually for each position it fills with a nonsmoker over one who smokes. It hired 5,500 new workers last year and plans to hire 700 this year. About a quarter of the company's 48,000 employees now smoke, and Bromley said it's clear they cost the company more money.

"Looking at our safety records, (we know that) people who smoke seem to have higher accident rates than nonsmokers," he said. "It's no secret that people who smoke have more health issues than nonsmokers."

On Jan. 1, Kalamazoo Valley Community College stopped hiring smokers for full-time positions at both its campuses. Part-time staffers who smoke won't be hired for full-time jobs, and the 20 to 25 openings that occur each year among the college's 365 full-time staff positions will go only to nonsmokers.

"Our No. 1 goal is to reduce our health claims," said Sandy Bohnet, vice president for human resources. "So many diseases can be headed off if people simply pay attention to their health care."

Twenty-eight states and the District of Columbia protect workers who smoke, saying they can't be discriminated against for that reason.

Michigan doesn't have such a law, but state Sen. Virg Bernaro has taken up the cause of the former Weyco workers. He plans to introduce a bill banning Michigan employers from firing or refusing to hire workers for legal activities they enjoy on their own time that don't impinge on their work.

Weyco President Howard Weyers thinks Bernero is on the wrong side, especially since companies are wrestling with ever-higher health care costs.

"We're doing everything we can ... to get our staff healthier," Weyers said, noting that his company reimburses workers for a portion of health club costs, pays them bonuses for meeting fitness goals and offers fitness classes and a walking trail at its Okemos office.

"Employers need help in this area. And I just don't think employers' hands should be tied" on how to accomplish that, he said.

Chris Boyd, an 18-year Weyco employee, said she considered the no-smoking policy drastic when Weyers first announced it. But she signed up for a smoking cessation group a few months later.

"I wasn't about to put smoking ahead of my job," said Boyd, 37, of Haslett. She had tried once before to break her 10-year, half-pack-a-day habit and said she probably wouldn't have been able to quit if not for the new policy.

The Society for Human Resource Management in Arlington, Va., found only one human resource manager among 270 surveyed nationally in December that had a formal policy against hiring smokers. About 4 percent said they preferred not to hire smokers, and nearly 5 percent said they charge smokers higher health care premiums, a policy Weyco put in place a year ago.

Although few companies are copying Weyco's example, "a lot of people are paying attention to this case because it's potentially the edge of a very slippery slope," said Jen Jorgensen, a spokeswoman for the society. "It has raised a lot of eyebrows."

Maltby said he doesn't have a problem with companies raising health insurance premiums for employees who have unhealthy habits. But he worries about what's next on employers' lists.

"If employers are going to make the smokers pay a surcharge, they might as well make the deep-sea divers and the motorcycle riders and the Big Mac eaters and the skiers pay a surcharge," he said. "Smoking, drinking, junk food, lack of exercise, unsafe hobbies, unsafe sex - the list of things many people do is endless."

Other issues of concern at this company? Overweight employees, Weyers told Reuters, though company wide mandates on diet and physical fitness have yet to be enforced.
__________________

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
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#2

Smokers need not apply COLLEGE'S HIRING POLICY 'BEYOND THE LIMIT'
Thursday, January 27, 2005
By Barton Deiters and Kathy Longcore
The Grand Rapids Press
GRAND RAPIDS -- Smoke a cigarette, lose your job.

That controversial no-smoking policy now in force at a Kalamazoo community college is part of a national debate about how far corporations can go in policing workers' health behavior.

Ask smoker Steve Zalewski of Grand Rapids what he thinks about it, and he'll tell you it is an example of corporate greed gone mad.


"These greedy companies don't want to hire smokers because they say we are less productive and poor employees. That's a huge slam," said Zalewski, 45, a credit analyst at an area company.

"Where does it stop? Where do they draw the line?"

That's the crux of the debate sparked by this week's announcement that Kalamazoo Valley Community College refuses to hire anyone full time if he or she smokes -- on the job or off. In addition, Okemos-based Weico Insurance Co. now tests employees for tobacco use and fired four who refused to be tested.

These moves represent a slippery slope toward companies controlling employees' lives outside work, said Wendy Wagenheim, spokeswoman for ACLU of Michigan.

"Where do we draw the line on this?" she said. "What about sitting in the sun, riding a motorcycle or having children? Those activities all can affect employee health."

But how employees take care of themselves is the business of the college and their co-workers, according to Sandy Bohnet, KVCC's vice president for human resources.

"We all contribute to the cost of health care," Bohnet said. "We all should take responsibility for our own health and minimize our health risk.

"There is just a lot of national data and research, and it's not only costs in terms of health claims, but it's also costs in terms of lost productivity. People who use tobacco products tend to have more time off of work than those who don't."

Bohnet suspects this kind of policy will crop up more and more.

"We may be one of the first in Michigan, but, in short order, I think other employers will take the step."

While most employers banished smokers from company buildings, several area colleges, hospitals and firm are nudging employees toward better health with a carrot instead of a stick.

Every area hospital banned smoking in buildings and on grounds in May
2003, making it inconvenient for smoke breaks.

Metropolitan Hospital went a step further, offering workers a savings on health-insurance premiums for healthy behaviors. They can get credits for not smoking, having a healthy body mass index and keeping blood pressure and cholesterol in the normal range. Workers can save up to $120 a year.

Grand Rapids manufacturer Clipper Belt Lacer offers $500 to employees who stop smoking for at least a year, or who embark on a long-term weight-loss program.

General Manager Nancy Ayres said a policy that punishes workers would not be effective in the long run for establishing healthy habits.

Clipper bought a refrigerator and stocked it with healthy treats for employees. Earlier this month, workers got a free lunch if they walked the mile to a sandwich shop with managers.

"We're throwing a bunch of stuff at employees to encourage healthy living and hope that they will work," Ayres said.

Hope and Calvin college and 20 area companies signed up for a Priority Health plan piloted last year. It rewards employees for getting a health appraisal and regular physical exams and setting health goals.

The plan does not punish those who do not meet their goals, said Wendy Wigger, director of wellness at Priority Health. But some companies may tie rewards to actions, including smoking cessation.

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
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#3

WE should b e allowed to smoke where ever and when ever.

thanks bye

Hummer

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#4

by the time I got to the first set of dashed lines ("------------") it was too far for me

is there a summary to be found?
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#5

SUMMARY;companies will fire you, won't hire you and descriminate against you if you choose to smoke "tobacco" in your home life. what's next? what you eat, you drink. The one company actually gave a drug test for "tobacco" to it's employees to weed them out.

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
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#6

I'm not a smoker....but I think it has gone to far.....what you do away from work is your business.

apple Wrote:Aww, but mich, its only a 22 year age difference, I'm still legal :broken:

Bill Wrote:The pool is frozen like Tom Foolery's Saturday night date's snatch.

pineschic Wrote:comon' over here big boy (Vita E).. I'll warm you right up. lol
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#7

snarg think fairy got lost on the way to the political forum
can someone direct her, pealse

Confusednarg:

I realise that I have a past to break with--an accumulation of inertia, wrong, foolishness, rot, junk.  A great need of clarification, of mindfulness, or rather, of no mind.  A need to return to genuine practice, right effort.  Need to push on the great doubt.  Need for the spirit.  Hang on to the clear light.
           
Thomas Merton


       
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#8

Fairiedust Wrote:SUMMARY;companies will fire you, won't hire you and descriminate against you if you choose to smoke "tobacco" in your home life. what's next? what you eat, you drink. The one company actually gave a drug test for "tobacco" to it's employees to weed them out.

The same company is now looking at the food issue. If you are withina a certain weight range or go to a health club you can make more $$$. They have not implemented it yet but are proposing it.

apple Wrote:Aww, but mich, its only a 22 year age difference, I'm still legal :broken:

Bill Wrote:The pool is frozen like Tom Foolery's Saturday night date's snatch.

pineschic Wrote:comon' over here big boy (Vita E).. I'll warm you right up. lol
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#9

Not political more...'IN THE NEWS', didn't involve DEMOCRATES, REPUBLICANS, AND OR OVERSEAS ISSUES FROM THE U.S. so it's a general opinion poll basically on how you feel about the boss watching you at home? Read it in the paper this morning, growled and posted it.

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
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#10

Michman Wrote:I'm not a smoker....but I think it has gone to far.....what you do away from work is your business.


snarg has read about coops in ny that prohibit smoking in people's own houses
owners have been evicted when neighbors complained of them smoking inside their own private properry

snarg thinks the country is going to hell in a handbasket

Confusednarg:

I realise that I have a past to break with--an accumulation of inertia, wrong, foolishness, rot, junk.  A great need of clarification, of mindfulness, or rather, of no mind.  A need to return to genuine practice, right effort.  Need to push on the great doubt.  Need for the spirit.  Hang on to the clear light.
           
Thomas Merton


       
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#11

Kalamazoo is a funny word


In all seriousness, smoking isn't against the law. Ergo, the companies are not within any rights to say employees cannot smoke on their own time, and to fire them for it. Drugs tests are OK because drugs are illegal, and could (in theory) affect someone's work. Until, and unless, smoking is illegal, they're overstepping their bounds.
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#12

i'm afraid they'll bring back Prohibition

I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
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#13

Fairiedust Wrote:i'm afraid they'll bring back Prohibition

It wouldn't be so bad. Organized Crime could use a shot in the arm.
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#14

Fairiedust Wrote:Not political more...'IN THE NEWS', didn't involve DEMOCRATES, REPUBLICANS, AND OR OVERSEAS ISSUES FROM THE U.S. so it's a general opinion poll basically on how you feel about the boss watching you at home? Read it in the paper this morning, growled and posted it.


it involves civil rights
it is a political issue
snarg likes political debate, but it is not popular at IT
mores's the pity

I realise that I have a past to break with--an accumulation of inertia, wrong, foolishness, rot, junk.  A great need of clarification, of mindfulness, or rather, of no mind.  A need to return to genuine practice, right effort.  Need to push on the great doubt.  Need for the spirit.  Hang on to the clear light.
           
Thomas Merton


       
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#15

snarg Wrote:it involves civil rights
it is a political issue
snarg likes political debate, but it is not popular at IT
mores's the pity

Its interesting that not one, but two different organizations would take such stands on smoking in such libelous times. Seems like they're begging to be sued.
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