You've made it abundantly clear you have no interest in anyone's stats or research but your own. I highly doubt you looked at any single link I posted, and you clearly missed the entire point of why I don't agree with it. I fail to see how continuing this diatribe when you are steadfastly going to cling to your own views is going to change anything, but I'll try one last time.
BIRD33 Wrote:What is the % of botched circumcisions a year,am I ever going to see that posted by you?Now weigh that against a persons chances of contracting HPV or HIV over their lifetime.I know your infant son has no chance of catching either but if something simple can be done shortly after birth to help protect him over his whole lifetime I don't know how you can't consider that.
My sister quoted the rates 10 -35%. I've already quoted the rates of HIV and HPV. The rate of contracting HIV? This stat doesn't exist. The incidence rate in the States is 0.33%. The incidence rate of HPV - 7.35%. Let's not compare apples to orange - HPV is a very treatable STD. And yes, men without foreskin DO contact both diseases.
So, the chances of contracting those things isn't negated 100% by circumcision. Let's not pretend that circumcision PREVENTS all cases of HIV and HPV, k? The studies have clearly said behavioural factors play more important roles. Like, for example, wearing a condom - something I find entirely more reasonable than chopping off a part of a baby that he is born with. You think it's fine, I do not. Also, did you read the links where it was pointed out that other studies have found results converse to that? (i.e., that being circumsized actually INCREASES the STD risk?) What does this do to your opinion? Any change?
Quote:So these Johns Hopkins and all the other studies are not fact?Really?Wow thanks for the lesson on what a study is.Answer this for me.Based on what we know right now does it look like there might be a benefit to having a circumcision?
No, it's not a FACT. This is pure science. For something to be considered a fact, it needs to have repoducable findings. That study clearly indicated the results were not clear. How do those findings, in AA and Hispanic populations, translate to real life? This is the only way they do: In AA and Hispanics, circumcision MAY reduce the chances of acquiring HIV or HPV. That's the only fact. This fact doesn't take into consideration the following: sex practices, sexual orientation, methods of prevention or other races. Don't ask me how an AA dick is different than any other, I don't know. But I do know this is a scientific question. You can't just hypothesize that all dicks are the same (which you did seem to assume).
Bird Wrote:I'm sorry this hasnt yet been endorsed by whatever pediatric association that you look on as gospel but you can not deny it looks like there could be a benefit and because of that more study is warranted.I never said this was an done deal but to say those studies hold no weight because whoever you look to for guidance that is using data from the 70's hasnt endorsed it yet is plain ignorant.How many studies have to point in one direction before I'm allowed to form an opposite opinion of yours, oh ye protector of foreskin?
Is now when you confess that you didn't bother reading any of the links I posted? Because if you did, this wouldn't be in question. And I don't understand your sentence about "data from the 70's" Explain.
BIRD Wrote:How am I not paying attention to your argument?I've considered what you said about the negatives of having it done
And yet, you boiled my stance down to the few men I have heard from who hate being circumcized?
BIRD Wrote:The last paragraph of yours is the worst thing I've ever seen you write on this board.Show me one, just one instance where I said I'm against not having it done because it looks ugly.When this was originally brought up by you long ago I took issue with how you made it seem like there was no doubt that circumcision was wrong because I had read things to the contrary.Are the studies I made you aware of BS nonsense or might my argument have merit?Are you more passionate about this, sure.Do you have all the answers on this subject, of course not.Is telling someone to grow up because they disagree with you a childish way to express your argument, absolutely.
You've refered to my sister and I as "freaks" because we prefer foreskin. You once commented (and I looked for it, but not for long) that it was weird to keep foreskin when it had no use. And you DON'T think it's childish to consider the foreskin of an infant weird? Or that women who might prefer it are freaky?
Conclusion: I've told you that I respect that you at least have a reason for not preferring it, but that I don't agree with it and wonder if you ever bothered to consider what might go wrong. Hey, if you are more comfortable acting in opposition of what medical science says (that being that despite the HIV studies, the medical risks STILL outweigh the benefits) go for it. But, don't read my post saying I won't do it because my infant has no chance of getting HIV or HPV as a "superficial" argument "based on very very weird men who are so upset by their circumcision they post on forums about it." Judgemental and totally off base.
I rest my case on the preponderance of medical information which says it's not medically indicated. You rest yours on the belief that you think your son is likely to acquire an STD. Very disparate views here. Your views aren't in question. Your reliance on incomplete data is. How is it that you favor those two studies over the hundreds and thousands of studies which have suggested it's not medically indicated (even in the face of the HIV findings)? The fact is - the North American medical community does not support circumcision as a medically necessary intervention. It's a personal one. But, I do think it's very important that people KNOW both sides before they do it. And do you? Did you really look at the data? If so, this argument should be over. It boils down to personal choice. But, because they are our children, it most certainly should be INFORMED personal decision.
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