[BIRD33]

if he can't even do his own taxes, how is he possibly the best person for the job? the guy can't even manage his own household's finances and he is the #1 qualified person to manage the finances of the entire country?

if someone was behind the wheel and at fault during a serious car accident, I don't want them to be a school bus driver. if someone got busted drunk driving, they shouldn't later be appointed the head of the dmv.

obviously it's not Obama's fault the Geithner and others have had tax problems, but why has he put himself in the line of fire be appointing them anyway. he's either lazy, ignorant, or stubborn, and I think stubborn is the obvious choice.




yeah I know, bush did the same stuff. yawn.

Doing your own personal taxes is a little different then managing economic policy.What you're saying is a guy who has AIDS can't manage the health and human services department which I don't think is true.Is it disturbing Gietner fucked his taxes up, sure.Does that disqualify him from ever working in the finance sector or does that mean he's unable to do the job Obama hired him to do, no.If you want to stretch it and only hire saints who've never made a mistake good look getting qualified people who can do the job.Nothing he did was criminal so unless you are prepared to disqualify eveyone who ever made a mistake I don't see it as lazy or stubborn.

We got on this topic because you guys made it seem like the hiring of people who have shady pasts was the norm for Obama.Who else do you have a problem with or was it just one guy you had a minor issue with and used "these guys" mistakenly?

[WoolyGoat]

daschle maybe?

[BIRD33]

Thats a good one.Nobody was or is more qualified to run this through the senate besides Hillary Clinton then him on Health Care.That was a shame.

I'm not saying its not embarrassing a little(but a very little) for people to be considered that have shit pop up that derails things and I'm not just pointing to GW when I say this has been happening forever.If Obama then went and hired Dascle despite his wife being basically a lobbyist then I can see your point but he didnt and we will never ever change the fact that some people who look great for a certain jobs have skeletons that pop up.Blame Obama if you want but I don't remember him promising no administrative screw ups as part of his change initiative and I believe you even think the "I thought this was change" line is ridiculous in this instance.

[Anhil8tor]

I think torture is a viable option.

[BIRD33]

Despite professionals in interrogation saying it doesnt work?

[Anhil8tor]

Despite professionals in interrogation saying it doesnt work?

Its a debatable topic. You will find as many people saying it works as saying it doesn't.


Do you believe that execution works or doesn't work?

[BIRD33]

Its a debatable topic. You will find as many people saying it works as saying it doesn't.


Do you believe that execution works or doesn't work?

Actually its not debatable.You won't find one expert who actually has interrogated people that says torture works.Go look.Did you see how we have to let terrorists in guantanomo go back to their country rather then try them in a court and lock them away forever because once we tortured them we blew all legal high ground we had?You watch to much 24 and part of the problem is you have this shoot from the hip mentality on something that destroys what america stands for.


I think the death penalty is pointless.It costs more to execute someone then it does to house them for the rest of their life in prison.

[WoolyGoat]

I think the death penalty is pointless.It costs more to execute someone then it does to house them for the rest of their life in prison.

is that true? I thought it was the other way around.

[BIRD33]

is that true? I thought it was the other way around.

Its true.Saw it the other night.One of the reasons New Mexico just dropped the death penalty was because of the costs.Death Penalty cases cost way more then regular cases and then you have to figure the hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted on appeals.One death penalty case alone can cost up to a million just on the first trial compared to $750 K for housing a guy 25 years.

[Anhil8tor]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...02907.html

Among the roughly 250 inmates who remain at Guantanamo are the worst of the worst, including dozens of proud and self-proclaimed members of al-Qaeda. Many have been directly involved in some of the worst terrorist attacks in history, including some who had direct knowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks. Others have trained or funded terrorists, made bombs or presented themselves as potential suicide bombers. As the pool of inmates has shrunk, those who remain are simply more dangerous, not less.

Lets let them out! WHOOT!

[BIRD33]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...02907.html

Among the roughly 250 inmates who remain at Guantanamo are the worst of the worst, including dozens of proud and self-proclaimed members of al-Qaeda. Many have been directly involved in some of the worst terrorist attacks in history, including some who had direct knowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks. Others have trained or funded terrorists, made bombs or presented themselves as potential suicide bombers. As the pool of inmates has shrunk, those who remain are simply more dangerous, not less.

Lets let them out! WHOOT!

Do you even get why we can't lock them up for life rather then let them go free?We can't bring their ass to court because any evidence we gathered using torture makes the whole thing invalid.

So which is it 8?Do you want them released after being tortured or locked away for life?

Its great you root for one thing and don't even understand how leads to something you don't like.

If you are looking for someone to blame his initials are G.W.B.

[Vitamin E]

A little something I found on phillyburbs....

[leeman]

A little something I found on phillyburbs....

Bird!!!

[Flumper Barflusterbutt]

Its true.Saw it the other night.One of the reasons New Mexico just dropped the death penalty was because of the costs.Death Penalty cases cost way more then regular cases and then you have to figure the hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted on appeals.One death penalty case alone can cost up to a million just on the first trial compared to $750 K for housing a guy 25 years.

Wow, so people that get locked up for life don't appeal their cases? That's great news. Its good to see you still get your information from the left wing propoganda.

[BIRD33]

Wow, so people that get locked up for life don't appeal their cases? That's great news. Its good to see you still get your information from the left wing propoganda.

#1 Its right wing to be anti-death penalty.Remember you people are the guardians of the sanctity of life.I guess jesus would be cool with executions?Hilarious you can't even get that right.

#2 Here's a list of places you can research this issue (obviously for the first time) that backs up my facts.

#3 You are so fucking ignorant it makes me laugh.Try reading up on a topic before labeling people left wing when you don't even know you in fact are with the left wing on this.

To execute or not: A question of cost?

States discover it's cheaper to imprison killers for life than to execute them


"It's 10 times more expensive to kill them than to keep them alive," though most Americans believe the opposite, said Donald McCartin, a former California jurist known as "The Hanging Judge of Orange County" for sending nine men to death row.
Deep into retirement, he lost his faith in an eye for an eye and now speaks against it. What changed a mind so set on the ultimate punishment?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/






[B]North Carolina Spends More per Execution than on a Non-death Penalty Murder Case[/B]

The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of life imprisonment (. On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $1 billion spent since 1976 on the death penalty.

[B][B]California[B] Spends Millions More on Capital Cases[/B][/B][/B]

California spends $90 Million dollars annually above and beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system on capital cases. $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988). In January 2003, despite a budge deficit, California Governor Gray Davis proposed building a new $220 million state of the art death row. ("San Quentin Debate: Death Row vs. Bay Views, New York Times, December 18, 2004).
[B][B]The California Death Penalty System Costs Taxpayers More than $114 Million a Year [/B][/B]

According to state and federal records obtained by The Los Angeles Times, maintaining the California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. This figure does not count the millions more spent on court costs to prosecute capital cases. The Times concluded that Californians and federal taxpayers have paid more than a quarter of a billion dollars for each of the state's 11 executions, and that it costs $90,000 more a year to house one inmate on death row, where each person has a private cell and extra guards, than in general prison population. This additional cost per prisoner adds up to $57.5 million in annual spending. ("Death Row Often Means a Long Life," Los Angeles Times, March 6, 2005).
[B][B]1988 Cost Study by the Sacramento Bee[/B][/B]

A study done by the Sacramento Bee (March 28, 1988) suggests that California would save $90 million per year if it were to abolish the death penalty. $78 million of these expenses are occurred at the trial level and would not be reduced by shortening appeals. ("CLOSING DEATH ROW WOULD SAVE STATE $90 MILLION A YEAR," Sacramento Bee, March 28, 1988).

[BIRD33]

Thanks for stopping by so I could hand you your ass.

[Moto]

A study done by the Sacramento Bee...

:lool:

[BIRD33]

:lool:

Wow great argument.Any thoughts on the other studies?Of course not you, 8 and Flumper are gut feelings guys and your gut feeling is executions are cool, just like in the movies.Its too bad you fucks can breed.

[Flumper Barflusterbutt]

#1 Its right wing to be anti-death penalty.Remember you people are the guardians of the sanctity of life.I guess jesus would be cool with executions?Hilarious you can't even get that right.

#2 Here's a list of places you can research this issue (obviously for the first time) that backs up my facts.

#3 You are so fucking ignorant it makes me laugh.Try reading up on a topic before labeling people left wing when you don't even know you in fact are with the left wing on this.

To execute or not: A question of cost?

States discover it's cheaper to imprison killers for life than to execute them


"It's 10 times more expensive to kill them than to keep them alive," though most Americans believe the opposite, said Donald McCartin, a former California jurist known as "The Hanging Judge of Orange County" for sending nine men to death row.
Deep into retirement, he lost his faith in an eye for an eye and now speaks against it. What changed a mind so set on the ultimate punishment?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/






[B]North Carolina Spends More per Execution than on a Non-death Penalty Murder Case[/B]

The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of life imprisonment (. On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $1 billion spent since 1976 on the death penalty.

[B][B]California[B] Spends Millions More on Capital Cases[/B][/B][/B]

California spends $90 Million dollars annually above and beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system on capital cases. $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988). In January 2003, despite a budge deficit, California Governor Gray Davis proposed building a new $220 million state of the art death row. ("San Quentin Debate: Death Row vs. Bay Views, New York Times, December 18, 2004).
[B][B]The California Death Penalty System Costs Taxpayers More than $114 Million a Year [/B][/B]

According to state and federal records obtained by The Los Angeles Times, maintaining the California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. This figure does not count the millions more spent on court costs to prosecute capital cases. The Times concluded that Californians and federal taxpayers have paid more than a quarter of a billion dollars for each of the state's 11 executions, and that it costs $90,000 more a year to house one inmate on death row, where each person has a private cell and extra guards, than in general prison population. This additional cost per prisoner adds up to $57.5 million in annual spending. ("Death Row Often Means a Long Life," Los Angeles Times, March 6, 2005).
[B][B]1988 Cost Study by the Sacramento Bee[/B][/B]

A study done by the Sacramento Bee (March 28, 1988) suggests that California would save $90 million per year if it were to abolish the death penalty. $78 million of these expenses are occurred at the trial level and would not be reduced by shortening appeals. ("CLOSING DEATH ROW WOULD SAVE STATE $90 MILLION A YEAR," Sacramento Bee, March 28, 1988).

:lool:

You forget which state I am from? We execute people on a conveyor belt, 24 hours a day.

And, your facts are bullshit made up by the anti-death penalty pussies. Trust me, they are all skewed to leave out the important facts that make them false.

There's a claim that it is more expensive for the state to execute a criminal than to incarcerate him for life. Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years. Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA (Justice for All) estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.

And life without parole prisoners face, on average, 30 or 40 years in prison while the annual cost of incarceration is $40,000 to $50,000 a year for each prisoner or more! There is no question that the up front costs of the death penalty are significantly higher than for equivalent LWOP cases. There also appears to be no question that, over time, equivalent LWOP cases are much more expensive - from $1.2 to $3.6 million - than death penalty cases. Opponents ludicrously claim that the death penalty costs, over time, 3-10 times more than LWOP.

The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94) research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of12/95). Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committed the exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DP cases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells will average a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate. Even though we are calculating a 75% greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DP counterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases are relevant.

Annual cost increases are based upon: 1) historical increases in prison costs, including judicial decisions regarding prison conditions,and the national inflation rate; 2) medical costs, including the immense cost of geriatric care, associated with real LWOP sentences; 3) injury or death to the inmate by violence; 4) injury or death to others caused by the inmate (3 and 4 anticipate no DP and that prisoners, not fearing additional punishment, other than loss of privileges, may increase the likelihood of violence. One could make the same assumptions regarding those on death row. The difference is that death row inmates will average 6 years incarceration vs. 50 years projected for LWOP); 5) the risk and the perceived risk of escape; and 6) the justifiable lack of confidence by the populace in our legislators, governors, parole boards and judges, i.e. a violent inmate will be released upon society.

$75,000 for trial and appeals cost, for DP-equivalent LWOP cases, assumes that the DP is not an option. It is believed that this cost estimate is very low. It is over-estimated that DP cases will cost twenty times more, on average, or $1.5 million. This exaggerated estimate states that the DP will have twenty times more investigation cost, defense and prosecution cost, including court time, guilt/innocence stage, sentencing stage and appellate review time and cost than DP equivalent LWOP cases. Even though abolitionists have greatly exaggerated the cost of DP cases, DP cases still prove to be significantly less expensive, over time, than the DP equivalent LWOP cases.

6 years on death row, prior to execution, reflects the new habeas corpus reform laws, at both the state and federal levels. Some anti-death penalty groups speculate that such time may actually become only 4 years. If so, then DP cases would cost even that much less than the DP equivalent LWOP cases. However, the average time on death row, for those executed from 1973-1994, was 8 years. Therefore, 6 years seems more likely. Even using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP cases are still $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).

So the death penalty costs reside mainly in appeals costs. Life without parole prisoners get the same appeals and should be considered to bear the same costs.

Its a fact BIRD33. Sorry.

[BIRD33]

Your state is full of shitheads.Nobody is disputing that.Its still left wing to be pro-death penalty and I love how you arent calling it left wing propaganda after I learned you.

I posted links to where I got my info including a news story from March 7th of this year.Can I assume since you accused me of posting biased info the paragraph you listed to dispute what I wrote was from an unbiased source?Please post where you got all that from so we can be sure you're not a hypocrite.Is 60 minutes a unreliable left wing organization because I got a lot of my info from their story the other night about New Mexico repealing it.


Lets also pretend that 256 people who have been sentenced to death and then been exonerated since 1989 never happened. Lets also pretend we havent executed probably a dozen innocent people over the years.Pay no attention to Illinois who have released 7 innocent people after convicting them and sentencing them to death since 1994.

I await with high anticipation your unbiased sources.