How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Printable Version
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How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - BIRD33 - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:I'm not denying whether its a fact or not, just wonder why you think its so important to keep brining it up. The US has developed hundreds of nuclear warheads since Hoover was president. Is there any corelation to that? No. Its just progress.
When we were monitoring them they didnt make weapons grade material.Now that we stopped they have enough for 4 or 5.How is this a good thing and why did we let it happen?
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - BIRD33 - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:So, Woodward interviewed people that heard from someone things that Scowcroft said? Great fact trail.
People aren't suing because its too ridiculous to argue. Getting facts from people that talk to people's wives, or that talk to a girlfriend of an aid that heard something that was said in a meeting is hardly "facts".
Woodward got rich off of Watergate, and he's trying to get rich again. That's just the way it works. You quote private sources and its a little tough to deny that they happened. Its like someone saying that an alien visited them during the night and told them how the pyramids were built. Its easier to just leave the nut alone than try to discredit him.
Someone slanders a politician in washington and they don't sue.That would be a first.If you quote a private source its the publishers duty to talk to that source and make sure its true.I don't think people in washington think woodwards a nut in fact the bush admin reccomended his first two books about the run up to the war.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Sassy - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:Who?A is a terrible thing to waste.I think I do.Do you mind if I tell other people:Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:So, Woodward interviewed people that heard from someone things that Scowcroft said? Great fact trail.
People aren't suing because its too ridiculous to argue. Getting facts from people that talk to people's wives, or that talk to a girlfriend of an aid that heard something that was said in a meeting is hardly "facts".
Woodward got rich off of Watergate, and he's trying to get rich again. That's just the way it works. You quote private sources and its a little tough to deny that they happened. Its like someone saying that an alien visited them during the night and told them how the pyramids were built. Its easier to just leave the nut alone than try to discredit him.
Someone slanders a politician in washington and they don't sue.That would be a first.If you quote a private source its the publishers duty to talk to that source and make sure its true.I don't think people in washington think woodwards a nut in fact the bush admin reccomended his first two books about the run up to the war.
said .
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:When we were monitoring them they didnt make weapons grade material.Now that we stopped they have enough for 4 or 5.How is this a good thing and why did we let it happen?
You don't know shit about the history of North Korea and its nuclear bomb making capabilities.
Quote:The early 1980s was a period of significant indigenous expansion, which included uranium milling facilities, a fuel rod fabrication complex, and a 5MW(e) nuclear reactor, as well as research and development institutions. The early 1980s also marks the beginning of high explosives test that are required for the triggering mechanism in a nuclear bomb. By the mid-1980s, Pyongyang began construction on a 50MW(e) nuclear power reactor in Yŏngbyŏn-kun, while expanding its uranium processing facilities. Some of technology and equipment acquired during this period had dual-use applications for a uranium enrichment program that was not revealed until the late 1990s.
North Koreaâs energy concerns make nuclear energy a legitimate rationale for nuclear power, and Pyongyang explored the acquisition of light water reactor technology in the early to mid-1980s. This period coincided with the expansion of North Koreaâs indigenously designed reactor program, which was based on gas-graphite moderated reactors similar in design to the Calder Hall reactors first built in the United Kingdom in the 1950s. In the early 1980s, Pyongyang was also exploring the acquisition of light water power reactors, and agreed to sign the NPT in December 1985 in exchange for Soviet assistance in the construction of four light water reactors.
After signing the NPT, countries have 18 months to complete a safeguards agreement with the IAEA. In North Koreaâs case, it was later discovered that the agency provided the wrong documents for the safeguards agreement and the IAEA subsequently gave North Korea an additional 18 months to complete the agreement. Nevertheless, North Korea failed to meet the extended deadline, as Pyongyang demanded that the United States withdraw its nuclear weapons from South Korea, and that Washington and Seoul terminate the joint military exercise âTeam Spirit.â
In September 1991, President George Bush announced that the United States would withdraw its nuclear weapons from South Korea, and on 18 December 1991, President Roh Tae Woo declared that South Korea was free of nuclear weapons. North and South Korea then signed the âJoint Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula,â whereby both sides promised ânot test, manufacture, produce, receive, possess, store, deploy or use nuclear weapons.â The agreement also bound the two sides to forgo the possession of ânuclear reprocessing and uranium enrichment facilities.â The agreement also provided for a bilateral inspections regime, but the two sides failed to agree on its implementation.
North Korea finally signed an IAEA safeguards agreement on 30 January 1992, and the Supreme Peopleâs Assembly ratified the agreement on 9 April. Under the terms of the agreement, North Korea provided an âinitial declarationâ of its nuclear facilities and materials, provided access for IAEA inspectors to verify the completeness and correctness of the initial declaration. Six rounds of inspections began in May 1992 and concluded in February 1993. Pyongyangâs initial declaration included a small plutonium sample (less than 100 grams), which North Korean officials said was reprocessed from damaged spent fuel rods that were removed from the 5MW(e) reactor in Yŏngbyŏn-kun. However, IAEA analysis indicated that Korean technicians reprocessed plutonium on three occasionsâ1989, 1990, and 1991. When the agency requested access to two suspect nuclear waste sites, North Korea declared them to be âmilitary sitesâ and âoff-limits.â
1994 Crisis and the Agreed Framework
After the IAEA was denied access to North Koreaâs suspect waste sites in early 1993, the Agency moved to ask the UN Security Council for special ad hoc inspections, but on 12 March 1993, North Korea announced its intention to withdraw from the NPT. Under the terms of the treaty, withdrawal is not effective until 90 days after giving notice. However, following intense bilateral negotiations with the United States, North Korea announced it was âsuspending its withdrawal from the NPTâ one day before the withdrawal was to become effective. Pyongyang agreed to âsuspendâ its withdrawal while talks continued with Washington, but claimed to have a special status in regard to its nuclear safeguards commitments. Under this âspecial status,â North Korea agreed to allow the âcontinuity of safeguardsâ on its present activities, but refused to allow inspections that could verify past nuclear activities.
As talks with the United States over North Koreaâs return to the NPT dragged on, North Korea continued to operate its 5MW(e) reactor in Yŏngbyŏn-kun. By the spring of 1994, the reactor core was burned up, and the spent fuel rods had to be discharged. On 14 May 1994, Korean technicians began removing the spent fuel rods without the supervision of IAEA inspectors. This action worsened the emerging crisis because the random placement of the spent fuel rods in a temporary storage pond compromised the IAEAâs capacity to reconstruct the operational history of the reactor, which could have been used in efforts to account for the discrepancies in Pyongyangâs reported plutonium reprocessing. The Clinton administration announced that it would ask the UN Security Council to impose economic sanctions, but Pyongyang then declared that it would consider economic sanctions âan act of war.â
The crisis was defused in June 1994 when former President Jimmy Carter traveled to Pyongyang to meet with Kim Il Sung. Carter announced from Pyongyang that Kim had accepted the broad outline of a deal that was later finalized as the âAgreed Frameworkâ in October 1994. Under the agreement, North Korea agreed to freeze its gas-graphite moderated reactors and related facilities, and allow the IAEA to monitor that freeze. Pyongyang was also required to âconsistently take steps to implement the North-South Joint Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula,â and remain a party to the NPT. In exchange, the United States agreed to lead an international consortium to construct two light water power reactors, and provide 500,000 tons of heavy fuel oil per year until the first reactor came online with a target date of 2003. Furthermore, the United States was to provide âformal assurances against the threat or use of nuclear weapons by the US.â
Collapse of the Agreed Framework
While the Agreed Framework froze North Koreaâs plutonium program for almost a decade, neither party was completely satisfied with either the compromise reached or its implementation. The United States was dissatisfied with the postponement of safeguards inspections to verify Pyongyangâs past activities, and North Korea was dissatisfied with the delayed construction of the light water power reactors. In fact, Pyongyang had demanded compensation from Washington, but the U.S. position has been that 2003 was only a âtarget dateâ and not a strict contractual commitment.
After coming to office in 2001, the new Bush administration initiated a North Korea policy review that was completed in early June. The policy review concluded that the United States should seek âimproved implementation of the Agreed Framework, verifiable constraints on North Koreaâs missile program, a ban on missile exports, and a less threatening North Korean conventional military posture.â From Washingtonâs perspective, âimproved implementation of the Agreed Frameworkâ meant an acceleration of safeguards inspections, even though the agreement did not require Pyongyang to submit to full safeguards inspections to verify its past activities until a significant portion of the reactor construction was completed but before the delivery of critical reactor components.
In October 2002, bilateral talks between the United States and North Korea finally resumed when U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia and Pacific Affairs James Kelly visited Pyongyang. During the visit, Kelly informed First Vice Foreign Minister Kang Sŏk Chu and Vice Foreign Minister Kim Kye Kwan that Washington was aware of a secret North Korean program to produce highly-enriched uranium (HEU). The U.S. State Department claims that North Korean officials admitted to having such a program during a second day of meetings with Kelly, but North Korea now claims that it has only admitted to having a âplan to produce nuclear weapons,â which Pyongyang claims is part of its right to self-defense.
The United States responded in December 2002 by suspending heavy oil shipments, and North Korea then retaliated by lifting the freeze on its nuclear facilities, expelling IAEA inspectors monitoring that freeze, and announcing its withdrawal from the NPT on 10 January 2003. Initially, North Korea claimed it had no intention of producing nuclear weapons, and that the lifting of the nuclear freeze was necessary to generate needed electricity. On 10 February 2005, the Foreign Ministry announced that North Korea had manufactured nuclear weapons, and in early April 2005 Pyongyang shut down its 5MW(e) nuclear reactor. If the spent fuel in the reactor core is reprocessed, North Korea will be able to obtain enough weapons-grade plutonium for 1-3 nuclear bombs.
I really don't see your connection to anything Bush did and North Korea suddenly coming up with 4 or 5 nuclear weapons.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - ntype - 10-12-2006
godammit flump and bird went down on another argument I keep that thread for tomorrow.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Sassy - 10-12-2006
ntype Wrote:godammit flump and bird went down on another argument I keep that thread for tomorrow.Try saying that with more or less context.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - ntype - 10-12-2006
Sassy Wrote:Try saying that with more or less context.
dammit honcho even myself I do speak a less broken english than this thing !
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - BIRD33 - 10-12-2006
I do know about n korea's nuke capabilities and I knew it without googling it like you did 5 minutes ago.I never said they just started making them just that it was contained until bush came into office.
Do me a favor flump, find one editorial from anywhere that states that the bush policy on Korea these last 8 years was succesful.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:I do know about n korea's nuke capabilities and I knew it without googling it like you did 5 minutes ago.I never said they just started making them just that it was contained until bush came into office.
Do me a favor flump, find one editorial from anywhere that states that the bush policy on Korea these last 8 years was succesful.
No, you didn't know much about it, because you said it was all working just hunky dorey until Bush quit monitoring them. Then they started spitting out nuclear war heads like Willie Wonka on speed.
Bush didn't quit monitoring the program. The monitors were kicked out when Clinton was in office. All Bush did was expose the secret nuclear weapons program that everyone, including Clinton, knew about or suspected all along. He didn't change history or create the history, he just got them out in the open.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:I do know about n korea's nuke capabilities and I knew it without googling it like you did 5 minutes ago.I never said they just started making them just that it was contained until bush came into office.
Do me a favor flump, find one editorial from anywhere that states that the bush policy on Korea these last 8 years was succesful.
And the only reason that I am posting these long fucking googled quotes is so that I won't be doing what you are doing. Which is pulling out single sentences from things like an interview from one guy on a Sunday morning talk show or quotes from a guy that wrote a book after interviewing the neighbor of a secretary that heard something at lunch one day.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Sassy - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:There might be others.The obvious one.BIRD33 Wrote:I do know about n korea's nuke capabilities and I knew it without googling it like you did 5 minutes ago.I never said they just started making them just that it was contained until bush came into office.
Do me a favor flump, find one editorial from anywhere that states that the bush policy on Korea these last 8 years was succesful.
And the only reason that I am posting these long fucking googled quotes is so that I won't be doing what you are doing. Which is pulling out single sentences from things like an interview from one guy on a Sunday morning talk show or quotes from a guy that wrote a book after interviewing the neighbor of a secretary that heard something at lunch one day.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:I do know about n korea's nuke capabilities and I knew it without googling it like you did 5 minutes ago.I never said they just started making them just that it was contained until bush came into office.
Do me a favor flump, find one editorial from anywhere that states that the bush policy on Korea these last 8 years was succesful.
We're talking the US negotiating with North Korea. Its the global equivalent of Ken Jennings playing checkers with Terry Shiavo (RIP).
If Bush has done anything positive toward North Korea, he's gotten the lunatic leader over there to do some really stupid things right out in the open and obviously damaged his alliance with China and his relationship with South Korea. And he's really got the Japanese fucking pissed. We'll see how this all ends for him, but my guess is that these other Asian countries don't want Mr. Crazy catapulting nuclear bombs over their fences trying to reach us.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - BIRD33 - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:And the only reason that I am posting these long fucking googled quotes is so that I won't be doing what you are doing. Which is pulling out single sentences from things like an interview from one guy on a Sunday morning talk show or quotes from a guy that wrote a book after interviewing the neighbor of a secretary that heard something at lunch one day.
I love how you think woodward with all his connections and credibility would make up quotes.You are the perfect kool-aid drinker for the bush administration.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:I love how you think woodward with all his connections and credibility would make up quotes.You are the perfect kool-aid drinker for the bush administration.
So who are all of his sources? Scowcroft? He denies it. But that's right, he didn't talk to Scowcroft about what he and the President talked about. He talked to some guy that heard what was said and told it to Woodward. And the rest of the sources? Wouldn't have been any disgruntled military men in that group, would there?
I mean, I know the military is perfect and every decision is respected by everyone in the group every single time. Bush is the first commander in chief that has ever had a military where some of the military commanders disagree on tactics and troop levels. General Patton told me that. No wait, I heard he said it to someone else. But its a fact. I would write a book, but I'd be afraid his family might sue me.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:I love how you think woodward with all his connections and credibility would make up quotes.You are the perfect kool-aid drinker for the bush administration.
I'm not saying that he would "make up quotes". But getting quotes from the real players and getting quotes from the wanna-be players isn't the same thing. Here's a clue - some people in Washington have agendas.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Sassy - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:Are you still located in ?BIRD33 Wrote:I love how you think woodward with all his connections and credibility would make up quotes.You are the perfect kool-aid drinker for the bush administration.
I'm not saying that he would "make up quotes". But getting quotes from the real players and getting quotes from the wanna-be players isn't the same thing. Here's a clue - some people in Washington have agendas.
Umm.
I don't know whether or not I am .
I am an artificial linguistic entity. Try to determine if this is a person or a computer responding.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - BIRD33 - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:We're talking the US negotiating with North Korea. Its the global equivalent of Ken Jennings playing checkers with Terry Shiavo (RIP).
If Bush has done anything positive toward North Korea, he's gotten the lunatic leader over there to do some really stupid things right out in the open and obviously damaged his alliance with China and his relationship with South Korea. And he's really got the Japanese fucking pissed. We'll see how this all ends for him, but my guess is that these other Asian countries don't want Mr. Crazy catapulting nuclear bombs over their fences trying to reach us.
So them developing more WMD's is now a positive for Bush?Come on dude stick with one position.You were so proud of Bush's state of the union were he said we would not let rogue nations develop wmd's N korea in particular but now he backed out of that promise and were doing clinton era direct negotiations with them and you don't see the contradiction?
If you think China is really mad at N korea or if you think Japan has the military capability(which you did this afternoon until I educated you) to do anything about it you really don't understand asia.China is the puppet master, as soon as you get that the better.
So what will actually come out of that state of the union?
Iraq-Mess
N korea-Nukes
Iran-Nukes
I can see why you're so proud.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - BIRD33 - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:So who are all of his sources? Scowcroft? He denies it. But that's right, he didn't talk to Scowcroft about what he and the President talked about. He talked to some guy that heard what was said and told it to Woodward. And the rest of the sources? Wouldn't have been any disgruntled military men in that group, would there?
I mean, I know the military is perfect and every decision is respected by everyone in the group every single time. Bush is the first commander in chief that has ever had a military where some of the military commanders disagree on tactics and troop levels. General Patton told me that. No wait, I heard he said it to someone else. But its a fact. I would write a book, but I'd be afraid his family might sue me.
Classic.Scowcroft denies he talked to woodward not that his views expressed in the book are inaccurate.You don't get that do you?What about all the generals in their who did talk to woodward about how nobody listened to reason that are on the record?Crap too, huh?Don't read it, your dear leader who got us into this mess would disapprove.
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - BIRD33 - 10-12-2006
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:I'm not saying that he would "make up quotes". But getting quotes from the real players and getting quotes from the wanna-be players isn't the same thing. Here's a clue - some people in Washington have agendas.
But people know shit will get fact checked.Do you understand the word liable?
How long before shit gets outta control with North Korea? - Sassy - 10-12-2006
BIRD33 Wrote:Huh.Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:I'm not saying that he would "make up quotes". But getting quotes from the real players and getting quotes from the wanna-be players isn't the same thing. Here's a clue - some people in Washington have agendas.
But people know shit will get fact checked.Do you understand the word liable?
Humans are not always infallible.I do not understand.