New Orleans - Printable Version

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New Orleans - ntype - 09-01-2005

pepsi Wrote:sigh.... I have family in new orleans and I'm pretty worried. We have no contact with them and we dont know if they are safe from this act of mother nature.

It's bad to have relatives "lost", hope for you that they are ok (did you checked if they were on tv raiding the local wall-mart Wink

).

Anyhow it's not "mother nature" to blame here, this kind of stuff is the direct consequences of globla warming and the fact that some countries (in fact the us mainly) refused to sign the Kyoto threaty "because there weren't evidences of such things will happen".

Global warming doesn't means that every place will transform into a desert (well some wil do indeed) but more the fact that seasons and "tempests" could become more violent. How many cat5 hurricanes there were in the last century ? now check how many 4-5 hurricanes are developping in the last years and you'll see that there's some kind of "acceleration" occuring.

Now there are more reasons, I know that in the US you see housing as a commodity and don't really build them to last "for centuries" that explain a lot of things. As a sidenote my parents bought an house in Italy that has been built in 1792, that shit is more solid than a safe.

New Orleans - BIRD33 - 09-01-2005

ntype Wrote:It's bad to have relatives "lost", hope for you that they are ok (did you checked if they were on tv raiding the local wall-mart ).

Anyhow it's not "mother nature" to blame here, this kind of stuff is the direct consequences of globla warming and the fact that some countries (in fact the us mainly) refused to sign the Kyoto threaty "because there weren't evidences of such things will happen".

Global warming doesn't means that every place will transform into a desert (well some wil do indeed) but more the fact that seasons and "tempests" could become more violent. How many cat5 hurricanes there were in the last century ? now check how many 4-5 hurricanes are developping in the last years and you'll see that there's some kind of "acceleration" occuring.

Now there are more reasons, I know that in the US you see housing as a commodity and don't really build them to last "for centuries" that explain a lot of things. As a sidenote my parents bought an house in Italy that has been built in 1792, that shit is more solid than a safe.

This is absolutly ridiculous.We dont sign the Koyoto treaty so we get a Cat 4 hurricane?Go fuck yourself and the german newspaper you get your info from.Im for signing Koyoto but dont be so arrogant to think that global warming is a cause for a natural disaster that has been occuring in varying intensities for the last 500 years.We had hurricanes this bad 100 years ago and 30 years ago.How did global warming have an effect on those?As far as your parents Italian house, has it ever gone through 150MPH winds or 30 inches of rain in a day dumbass?How do you know how Americans build their houses,Im pretty sure we have triple the houses built to last compared to europe and you show me the houses in europe that could stand up to a Cat 4 hurricane.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372179,00.html

New Orleans - Bill - 09-01-2005

BIRD33 Wrote:This is absolutly ridiculous.We dont sign the Koyoto treaty so we get a Cat 4 hurricane?Go fuck yourself and the german newspaper you get your info from.Im for signing Koyoto but dont be so arrogant to think that global warming is a cause for a natural disaster that has been occuring in varying intensities for the last 500 years.We had hurricanes this bad 100 years ago and 30 years ago.How did global warming have an effect on those?As far as your parents Italian house, has it ever gone through 150MPH winds or 30 inches of rain in a day dumbass?How do you know how Americans build their houses,Im pretty sure we have triple the houses built to last compared to europe and you show me the houses in europe that could stand up to a Cat 4 hurricane.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372179,00.html

not to draw away from your statement cause I'm kinda pissed off by Ntpyes statement too, but the norwegins are way ahead of us in home building technologies...they build some of the most solid and energy efficent house on the planet..

New Orleans - cLaY - 09-01-2005

hope your family is okay pepsi, too bad you weren't chained to someone's bed posts down in the 9th ward.

New Orleans - ntype - 09-01-2005

I see that I did put a controversial post (my luck for one time that someone reads them).

Ok let's start how global warming could affect that situation :

[Image: gulf.gif]

this is the gulf stream.

The gulf stream goes all the way, carrying hot water from equator up to the north pole, the process is called "a conveyor belt" you transfer heat from equator (more sunny regions) to northern regions (less sunny)

see the two urls to see extended informations.
link 1
link 2
wikipedia on that

now global warming with melting ice caps (I'm not inventing stuff here you know) slow down the process (fresh water from poles melting) thus distributing the heat in a less homogenous way that it was upon now.

Now get in mind that if the water from the gulf of mexico don't get as much exchange as they used to, you create a warmer sea and this way you create more dangerous conditions for hurricanes as warmer sea = more powerful hurricanes.

Get that link from CNN NOAA and hurricanes

from cnn article Wrote:"The issue, really, this year is the anomalously warm sea surface temperatures in the Atlantic," Lepore said

Hurricanes and global warming are connected ? other info here

from link Wrote:Kevin Trenberth (CGD) says that although itâs controversial, he thinks that global warming is in fact creating conditions that are favorable for hurricanes to be more severe. âGlobal climate change, and global warming in particular, create a different background environment in which the hurricanes are working,â he says. âThe sea surface temperatures are a little warmer, the whole environment is a bit wetter, thereâs more humidity, and thatâs the main fuel for hurricanes.â

So Now I arrive to your question; how come Kyoto threaty could be related ?

Kyoto threaty will the intent to slow down our production of greenhouse gases; CO2 mainly, because carbon dioxide is the result of burning fossil fuel (coal, petrol...) had the idea to slow down that global warming effect.
Now keep in mind that
1. climate is a complex thing who involves a lot of parameters
2. climate doesn't change in one day but is a long process, like a fully loaded cargo ship you can't stop it in one second and you need a few moments to gain speed

So the idea of Kyoto was to create favorable conditions for tomorrow.

Sure in Europe we don't have those conditions as you have, but now don't get me wrong from what I see is that a lof of houses weren't built with that in mind, sure you do build houses and stuff. I wasn't here to state that americans build paper houses but that it was quite evident that a few houses weren't built to support hurricanes (but I agree with you a few things could support a cat 5 hurricane) or in dangerous zones. It's called risk management if you put a lof of people in insufficient security conditions in a place everything will be ok until something like a hurricane that huge happens.

Now my parent's house in Italy.
first : been built in 1792 (never had any problem, never had to be rebuilt). It's up there since 213 years I think it counts.
Even if it didn't had to suffer from bad hurricanes as in New Orleans it had to suffer from severe conditions (for example very heavy snowings that crashed new houses roofs with insufficient strenght) and it's up.

Now I am a little bit angry because you obviously didn't got any interest in your environment and attacks me without providing any serious thing (there's the german newspaper, but you may be surprised that I don't read german newspapers, I am not german I'm swiss and in switzerland our german part doesn't speak german but "swiss-german" you may wonder what is the difference it's almost like comparing modern english to old english. German is the official tongue, swiss germans speaks a multitude of dialects who are related to german as being a "germanic language".
For example Italians, spanish, portuguese, Romanian and French are known as "latin languages" as they share common roots, now you obviously know that spanish doesn't looks like french or italian or.

anyhow.

New Orleans - BIRD33 - 09-01-2005

Nice science lesson.Read this Mr Wizard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/national/30cycle.html?ei=5094&en=881f1863a6416e02&hp=&ex=1125374400&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

My arguement isnt global warming wont affect the enviroment, of course it will but dont put it out there that we are getting hit by stronger and more hurricanes because "we dont care about our enviroment". Your fucking country is the size of one of our small states so Im pretty sure we have more national park land than the total square area of your country along with more conservation efforts per capita.Hey Mr Europe will China be signing Koyoto?I highly doubt it even though they are one of the biggest polluters in the world with no regard to enviromental issues but its americas fault there is global warming?I dont see any Europeon countries pressuring china to do anything about Kyoto or any enviromental issue but you sure know how to buy their cheap goods.As far as your parents house how can you compare 20 ft of snow to 20 inches of rain and 140mph winds?I gurantee you your parents Italian house would not be standing if it was on the gulf coast during the hurricane.

New Orleans - ntype - 09-01-2005

You are pointing something interesting indeed, not everyone agrees with the scenario I despict.

Now I don't really understand your problem, the main idea behind Kyoto threaty is not to shut down the factories and cars of a country "because you pollute" but only to give roots for sustained durable development.

Durable development is, by the better usage of natural ressources, the main idea for providing long term ressources for the economy. On a side note usually reducing the wastes and the needed input in any process is too an economically interesting equation as it lowers costs and guarantees a longer exploitation of those said ressources.

Then you state something about the size of my country and other stuff. Last time I checked

1. yes my country is small, there a 7 million people around here. I think you have even more people in only one area of New-York

2. weather ignore human borders, a cloud is a cloud it wanders around doing clouds things (dunno hidding the sun, raining, making fun shapes...)

3. your country got a lot of national parks, that is really cool, but you can understand that having a national park in alaska won't do any good for the swamps in Florida (for example) so you have parks, that is nice, but environment is both a very global and very local thing. That is why "experts" doesn't fully agree

4. if you want to compare national parks affectation you should take the ratio of "political land" that is affected to national parks in both countries and do us e funny math to make those two numbers related.

Now what is your point ? Because NOT EVERYONE has signed that threaty you could just ignore it ? That is utter non-sense and a very selfish reasonment.

New Orleans - BIRD33 - 09-01-2005

ntype Wrote:You are pointing something interesting indeed, not everyone agrees with the scenario I despict.

Now I don't really understand your problem, the main idea behind Kyoto threaty is not to shut down the factories and cars of a country "because you pollute" but only to give roots for sustained durable development.

Durable development is, by the better usage of natural ressources, the main idea for providing long term ressources for the economy. On a side note usually reducing the wastes and the needed input in any process is too an economically interesting equation as it lowers costs and guarantees a longer exploitation of those said ressources.

Then you state something about the size of my country and other stuff. Last time I checked

1. yes my country is small, there a 7 million people around here. I think you have even more people in only one area of New-York

2. weather ignore human borders, a cloud is a cloud it wanders around doing clouds things (dunno hidding the sun, raining, making fun shapes...)

3. your country got a lot of national parks, that is really cool, but you can understand that having a national park in alaska won't do any good for the swamps in Florida (for example) so you have parks, that is nice, but environment is both a very global and very local thing. That is why "experts" doesn't fully agree

4. if you want to compare national parks affectation you should take the ratio of "political land" that is affected to national parks in both countries and do us e funny math to make those two numbers related.

Now what is your point ? Because NOT EVERYONE has signed that threaty you could just ignore it ? That is utter non-sense and a very selfish reasonment.

My point is their is no evidence that global warming had anythng to do with hurricane katrina.My other point is that I think Kyoto is a good thing and the USA should sign it but europe has no business telling us what to do when they ignore china's absolute disregard to any enviromental issues and still buy their products.If you care about the enviroment so much throw out all your shit stamped "made in China" before you start lecturing Americans on the enviroment.Its a double standard europeons dont want to talk about.

New Orleans - leucetios - 09-01-2005

BIRD33 Wrote:My point is their is no evidence that global warming had anythng to do with hurricane katrina.My other point is that I think Kyoto is a good thing and the USA should sign it but europe has no business telling us what to do when they ignore china's absolute disregard to any enviromental issues and still buy their products.If you care about the enviroment so much throw out all your shit stamped "made in China" before you start lecturing Americans on the enviroment.Its a double standard europeons dont want to talk about.

I could be wrong, but I think the big reason so many countries pressure us on this is that Clinton has signed, or agreed to sign the treaty, then when Bush came in he nixed it, so they are pressuring us to flip on Bush's flop.

Side note: I was kinda chilly last night, do you think we could speed up this global warming thing any?

New Orleans - BIRD33 - 09-01-2005

leucetios Wrote:I could be wrong, but I think the big reason so many countries pressure us on this is that Clinton has signed, or agreed to sign the treaty, then when Bush came in he nixed it, so they are pressuring us to flip on Bush's flop.

Side note: I was kinda chilly last night, do you think we could speed up this global warming thing any?

Like I said, I think we should sign it.If we dont thats Bush's choice which as usual is probably rooted in special interests but fuck Europe and their double standards.

New Orleans - Bill - 09-01-2005

BIRD33 Wrote:Like I said, I think we should sign it.If we dont thats Bush's choice which as usual is probably rooted in special interests but fuck Europe and their double standards.

the Bush family made all their money in the oil business....you decide.

New Orleans - ntype - 09-01-2005

BIRD33 Wrote:My point is their is no evidence that global warming had anythng to do with hurricane katrina.My other point is that I think Kyoto is a good thing and the USA should sign it but europe has no business telling us what to do when they ignore china's absolute disregard to any enviromental issues and still buy their products.If you care about the enviroment so much throw out all your shit stamped "made in China" before you start lecturing Americans on the enviroment.Its a double standard europeons dont want to talk about.

true Katrina isn't here because of global warming only, only that people all agree that warmer seas creates stronger hurricanes, and like global warming heats up the oceans I see some kind of correlation.
To be clear global warming didn't "created" katrina, it maybe only gave roots to strenghten that hurricane.

Now you may not be really aware but China has become "the factory" of the world; for a lot of reasons, but mainly is ultra low wages, almost no environmental laws and a political system that is by no standarts allowing free speech.

It's funny that you talk about economic balance with china, now let's take some us official numbers here (pdf) link from Bureau of Economic Analysis (linked to trade department). Those are the most recent figure available.

from pdf Wrote:The goods deficit with China increased from $15.8 billion in May to $17.6 billion in June. Exports
increased $0.1 billion to $3.4 billion, while imports increased $1.9 billion to $21.0 billion.

It states that you import more goods from china than you export to china.

But clearly there are some shadow play here, I never stated that "Europeans" (it's funny because in Switzerland there is a strong fear of Europe, we are not part of the European Community if you wonder) are all perfect, it's the usual politics "the reason of state knows reasons that the reason doesn't know" (to quote quite freely Voltaire on love).

Anyhow.

New Orleans - Jdub - 09-01-2005

[Image: OhGod.gif]

New Orleans - Cmuncher - 09-01-2005

Can we get back to New Orleans is sinking?

New Orleans - Jimmy - 09-01-2005

Ha Ha Radio stations here won't play Led Zeppelins "when the levee breaks" or The Tragically Hip's "New Orleans is sinking" songs anymore.

Bode.

New Orleans - SanDog - 09-01-2005

Nice global warming arguement.

I submit that this is the kind of shit that happens when you dam an area and build a town underwater. Look for this same sort of catastrophe in Florida in the coming years.

Weather runs in cycles. We have been lucky for a long time, and now, not so much.

New Orleans - Raiden - 09-01-2005

[Image: looter.jpg]

New Orleans - Anhil8tor - 09-02-2005

i'm glad san dog made it into this thread

New Orleans - Devious - 09-02-2005

Anhil8tor Wrote:i'm glad san dog made it into this thread

I'm glad you are okay.. I was just chatting with suzy about you. Was wondering how you were doing...

New Orleans - Raiden - 09-02-2005

Devious Wrote:I'm glad you are okay..

Ditto. I'm glad you and TammyC are okay.
Do we have any other cajuns/rednecks from the South that we need to be concerned about?